This is my pre-emptive attempt to make people aware of my position, and to explain why any challenges to that position will be futile and useless.
First of all, I want to be clear that I in no way feel obligated to justify or make excuses for my beliefs. I will also be clear to the fact that I do not know everything; and neither do any of you. I accept the responsibility and consequences for my own beliefs, behavior, and thoughts on this subject.
I believe in one God, maker of all things visible and invisible. I believe that God clothed Himself in human flesh to become His Son, Jesus, a Jew of the line of King David, and that He is the Light of the World, and the creator of all things. I believe that Jesus Christ suffered, was crucified by Pontius Pilate at the urging of the Jewish leadership, was buried, rose from the grave on the third day, and ascended into Heaven. I believe that He shall return one day to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, which is simply God in Spirit-form, and is the same Spirit that spoke to the prophets, and is now available to all who believe.
Now, for those that which to dispute these beliefs; here is what you are up against. Basically, I believe that for every document, artifact, or shred of evidence that any person uses to prove that Christianity is false; I believe completely and unequivically that evidence to counter their argument exists. Some of it I may have handy. Some of it I might have to look up. Some of it may be yet to be discovered. It does not matter. I have complete faith in the tenets discussed above; and I will go to my grave with them.
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I am not into playing God and deciding one's fate. All I know is that if I feel very strongly that if I did not believe in the resurrection, and claim Christ as Lord, then I would be eternally separated from God when I die. You can take that for what you will......If you are offended by anything that I believe; then you are offended by your own choice. I am certainly not offended by what you believe. I am only offended when others choose to humiliate or insult my beliefs. That is the only rule of thumb that I use when discussing religion-do not humiliate or belittle others religious beliefs. That is off limits; and it is downright rude anyways.
And that's fantastic. Challenging people is fine. Religion is a very personal and intimate subject, though, you can't just start finding loopholes in ther logic, because it's an article of faith. It is wrong for Christians to say you're going to he11, plain and simple. Christians are taught not to judge others, and yet they do, mostly to feel morally superior. I'm a liberal Christian, how do you think THAT flies over in a country where Pat Robertson ran for President not that long ago? These days, if you don't believe a very specific brand of Christianity, the evangelical thing that's going around, you'll get an earful. I don't call myself evangelical for the same way I don't call myself pro-life, it should go without saying. The mere fact that I am alive means I am pro-life, and the fact that I am Christian means I promote the Word. It's part of the definition. So trust me, I get it, when people who don't know me say I'm going to he11 because I don't conform to THEIR way of thinking.
I am going to bed. Later folks.
Well, I accept your apology on that but I don't understand why it is a bad thing to discuss religion .. especially when it plays a role in peoples view of politics. A big portion of peoples political perceptions are shaped by their religious views and their views on history and cultures. I like to confront the ideas that I was forcefed from birth too. I can see right pass the bologney and the lies in religion because I actually question things. I don't just accept someone elses words and use them as my own. Amen ----- lol
Why ar you dredging this up, Lucky? You're going back two days to find what I said? Why can't you stop the constant defensive posture and have a simple talk?
Arjay (Vote Only)
6.6113
Mayor
Posted: Jan 2 2009 11:36 PM
Lucky, you have to believe in God for that to mean anything to me.
Lucky, I'm trying to talk civilly to you. I'm not going to go into defensive mode. Honestly, I don't remember what I said yesterday, and I'm not going to demand proof. If you said I called you an atheist, I believe you, and if I did, I was out of line, and I apologize for it. I'm not looking for an argument, and I hope we can talk without you looking for one, either.
OK. Then why did you say "For your sake, I hope that I am dead wrong" ?????
Arjay - you did not ask me until after you said "Lucky, why is this so important to you, to try to dissuade literally everyone from believing in God, any god? Straight question, not playing any games, just asking." posted by arjay on 01/04/2009 @ 3:19 AM
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Actually, you called me an atheist yesterday too Arjay .. so you are full of crap.
That statement says nothing about burning in hell. You are making an inference that I did not suggest. Do I believe that those who choose to reject Christ will have consequences? Yes! I am not clear on what those are. I do believe that they will be eternally separated from God in some capacity; but that is the extent of my belief on the subject. The fire and brimstone that you are referring to is in your own mind.
Yes you did. ---------- We will all find out who is right in the end. For your sake, I hope that I am dead wrong. posted by progress on 01/04/2009 @ 12:42 AM
Well, Lucky, you're welcome to talk more about this whenever you like. Smell you later.
Well, I like C. S. Lewis version. The doors to H ell are locked from the inside. Those that reject Christ choose separation from Him. It is an elected consequence.
Progress, it could have been here, it could have been elsewhere. It could have been in the real world. You see it on TV all the time, if you're not saved, you will burn baby burn for all time. It's all over the place.
Lucky, who said anything about H E L L? I have not even discussed that concept here. I simply stated what I believe about Jesus Christ, and the basic creed of Christianity. A discussion of H ell would be a totally different topic of discussion.
Lucky, I did not call you an atheist, I merely asked if you were. I'd like to hear about your beliefs. You sound agnostic, reserving judgment on the subject because there's no clearcut evidence one way or another. There's nothing at all wrong with a little skepticism. Now, if I ever said you're going to burn in he11, or I ever made you think that, I apologize. But I can only speak for myself. You did challenge me a little on my beliefs today, though, and that's fine. But you need to understand, what I believe and what you believe are both valid, so long as we keep it on a respectable level. Can we agree on that much?
Quit calling me an atheist because I don't believe what you believe. Where is your respect for my beliefs? You have none. Where have I ever tried to dissuade someone from believing in God? Post it. You won't be able to find me convincing someone that there is not a God. I do believe in God ... I just don't believe like you and the major difference is that I am not threatening people with **** and eternal damnation. Why is it so hard to discuss religion with people that only view their concept as correct? I never claimed I know everything and I never tried to convert someone to my beliefs in God ever. I do use those things called facts though ... and the magic doesn't fly with me. I question everything and that is because God gave me a brain to detect bullshit and I use it.
No, I get that. But you've been all over the place with this, not just this blog. I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you, I'm just asking straight questions, not playing any games here, it's between just you and me. If you'd rather take this private to keep it between us, that's fine. It's one thing to state your beliefs on a topic. It's another to hunt down everyone talking about God. First things first, are you atheist or agnostic?
When someone posts a blog ... typically it is to enter debate. If they do not want to debate something they post ... then what is the point of posting anyway?
Lucky, why is this so important to you, to try to dissuade literally everyone from believing in God, any god? Straight question, not playing any games, just asking.
Well, your right Progress - I hope your "god" doesn't send me to **** for not believing exactly what you believe. I will be in good company and I will make sure to say hi to ghandhi when I get there. Threatening people with hell for not believing in what you believe is nothing less than spiritual fraud. If people don't believe in what you were taught .... they burn forever with a painful death. Sorry, I don't think a loving God would do that. Especially not to over half the people that have ever lived on this planet. I bet hell is going to be real crowded.
Thanks for that, Arjay......Just to comment on what you wrote, I think the biggest dilemma we have to come to terms with when a tragedy strikes is that we want someone to blame. In regards to the car accident, of course I don't know the details, but really that was a consequence of human behavior. Someone made a bad judgment in one of the cars; and the result is a tragedy. God is not a part of that equation. Human free will and accountability is. But I digress....I had my own struggles. My dad led the singing, and my mom played the piano, in our church growing up. Yet, our home life was anything but perfect. My mother cussed like a sailor; and because of her later-diagnosed bi-polar disorder, she did things that would be considered child abuse even in the state of Texas, which is very hard to do. I had my period of doubt......One glaring difference between Christianity and other religions, including Buddhism, that I found was that in other religions, the onus is on the convert to learn and walk a certain path to righteousness or enlightenment. In Christianity, it is the opposite. For us to be redeemed, God had to come to us. We are physically, mentally, and spiritually unable to do anything about our human condition to reach God. For God to save us; He would have to do all of the work. Add to that that He was willing to do it, which is a totally different subject in itself; and it was the only "religion" that made sense to me.......However, in my own personal walk, it has become more of a relationship with God for the purpose of love, encouragement, and a want for justice in the world. Everything else is just semantics to me......Anyways, thanks again for sharing......Arch.
I was born to a mother who wasn't big on church, but allowed my brother and I to explore religion for ourselves. I grew up as a Baptist because that's what my grandmother and friends were. Was baptized at the age of 15, completely my call. Didn't give much thought to it from then until my Mom died--here's a woman who was not a survivor, but a victor, over breast cancer, ovarian cysts, alcoholism, smoking, and had finally found the love of her life. I remember some days, picking her up from radiation (she refused to have her breast removed or do chemo), she was in such pain and in tears, but she never let anyone else see. She presented herself as a strong woman for the world to see, but when she came home, she drank herself to sleep. She eventually beat all that, and the next thing you know, she dies in a car accident. Something like that shakes your faith a little, makes you wonder, how could a loving God help her through so many tribulations, only to die in an instant in the renaissance of her life? I gave up on church and Jesus for awhile and studied Buddhism, and it occurred to me, Buddha and Jesus are saying the same thing. But here's the difference, Buddha was a prince who abandoned his wives and children and avarice for understanding, whereas Jesus was born in a barn and worked as a carpenter. Which icon can I relate to better, a prince or a working-class hero? It was at that time I renewed my faith, putting Jesus as the pure and flawless jewel in the middle, if this guy died for my sins, and was willing to go through what he did to make his words mean something, perhaps I should stop listening to the preachers, the televangelists, even the prophets, and start with Jesus, and let everything else become secondary. I've been a red-letter Christian ever since, all the theology and dogma has been stripped away, and the world makes a whole lot more sense.
Your right, Lucky. I am correct in my understanding of God based on the current stage in my relationship with Him. You are right.......One added note: I have complete faith, being that the Jewish people are very particular and specific about their religion, that Judaism survived in spite of the competing Egyptian influences; just as I believe that true Christianity has survived in spite of the pagan and other influences on it. So, that argument means nothing to me......Also, it is obvious from your replies that you only skimmed through the blog, rather than actually read it line by line. Perhaps if you read it again, you will understand where I am coming from......Finally, I know that I am the final judge on what I believe and accept as truth. Therefore, your judgment of me or my beliefs does not matter. We will all find out who is right in the end. For your sake, I hope that I am dead wrong.
I for one take the other path of not following any dogma of any kind...I'd rather not be forced to believe something without any real, solid, undeniably true proof that its claims are valid. I don't want to step on anybody's toes spiritually, but I just don't see the point. Personally, I have more faith in real practices like science, reason, logic, and just plain hard work which is all stuff that will advance us further into the future, not religion.
Thats right Progress. You already know everything there is to know about God so don't even look deeper into the matter because you already know everything. Ignore facts in favor of maintaining your existing beliefs and don't you dare question what the church and bible translators have produced for you as "God's Word", they wouldn't dare deceive you and of course the bible is wrong about them trying to deceive you so just skip those parts of the bible because they aren't relevant. Actually, it is tragic that you shut your eyes to truth. You just admitted that "I have complete faith in the tenets discussed above; and I will go to my grave with them" ... so no need to question anything ... you know it all. That is amazing that you would be willing to go to the grave with these beliefs at the expense of truth. That is sad. Brainwashing is indeed powerful. Sorry to say that but its true. If these things that you claim are actually the sole truth ... then what does it hurt to look into the evidence regarding these claims? If there is truth outside of these claims and you can get closer to god in going outside of your scope, then why not? Why sacrifice your spiritual being for dogma and ritual? After all, I am sure that after looking at ALL the evidence, you will maintain the same beliefs because your beliefs are the only ones that are correct.
very well put progress, however now you will have to deal with lucky doing his best to ridicule your faith and promote his belief over all others.
Stick with Jesus and you can't go wrong
Of course, being all humans, and human behavior being predictably similar throughout the world, there is no surprise to see similarities between cultures.
Egypt was an important centre of the Jewish diaspora starting in the 6th century BC, and Egyptian literature influenced the Hebrew Bible. With Greek rule there was significant cultural interchange between Egyptians and Greeks. Notable among Egyptian cults that spread abroad were those of Isis, which reached much of the Roman world as a mystery religion, and of Sarapis, a god whose name probably derives from Osiris-Apis, who was worshiped widely in a non-Egyptian iconography and cultural milieu. With Isis went Osiris and Horus the child, but Isis was the dominant figure. Many Egyptian monuments were imported to Rome to provide a setting for the principal Isis temple in the 1st century AD.
The cult of Isis was probably influential on another level. The myth of Osiris shows some analogies with the Gospel story and, in the figure of Isis, with the role of the Virgin Mary. The iconography of the Virgin and Child has evident affinities with that of Isis and the infant Horus. Thus, one aspect of Egyptian religion may have contributed to the background of early Christianity, probably through the cultural centre of Alexandria. Egypt also was an influential setting for other religious and philosophical developments of late antiquity such as Gnosticism, Manicheism, Hermetism, and Neoplatonism, some of which show traces of traditional Egyptian beliefs. Some of these religions became important in the intellectual culture of the Renaissance. Finally, Christian monasticism seems to have originated in Egypt and could look back to a range of native practices, among which were seclusion in temple precincts and the celibacy of certain priestesses. Within Egypt, there are many survivals from earlier times in popular Christianity and
Islām.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topi
c/180764/Egyptian-religion
Inclusive monotheism- Inclusive monotheism accepts the existence of a great number of gods but holds that all gods are essentially one and the same, so that it makes little or no difference under which name or according to which rite a god or goddess is invoked. Such conceptions characterized the ancient Hellenistic religions. A well-known example is that of the goddess Isis in the Greco-Roman mystery religion that is called after her. In The Golden **** of Apuleius, the goddess herself speaks: “My name, my divinity is adored throughout all the world, in divers manners, in variable customs, and by many names.” Then there follows a number of divine names, and this enumeration ends: “And the Egyptians, which are excellent in all kind of ancient doctrine, and by their proper ceremonies accustomed to worship me, do call me by my true name, Queen Isis.”
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/390101/m
onotheism
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Among the three great monotheistic religions, Christianity has a place apart, because of the trinitarian creed of this religion in its classic forms, in contradistinction to the unitarian creed of Judaism and Islām. The Christian Bible, including the New Testament, has no trinitarian statements or speculations concerning a trinitary deity, only triadic liturgical formulas invoking God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is true that Christianity also has had its Unitarians, such as the 16th-century Italian theologian Faustus Socinus, but this religion in its three classic forms of Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism acknowledges one God in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. According to Christian theology, this acknowledgment is not a recognition of three gods but that these three persons are essentially one, or as the dogmatic formulation, coined by the early Church Father Tertullian (c. 160–after 220), has it: three Persons and one substance. This conception was not accepted without contradiction as is proved by theological disputes of the 3rd and 4th century. It is evident that trinitarian speculation greatly resembles the way of thinking of pluriform monotheism. It is, of course, unlikely that there are any historical connections between these phenomena; both, however, try to solve what is more or less the same problem in more or less the same manner. The main distinction is that Christianity as a monotheistic religion restricts itself to three Persons, though primitive religions have no reason to restrict the number of possible forms of the one divine substance. Like other religions that cover a large territory and have a long history, Christianity appears in a multitude of variations: there is Christian pantheism, Deism, and even, paradoxically, Christian atheism, as exemplified in the mid-20th-century Death of God theologies.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/390101/m
onotheism
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Egyptian religion is of special interest with regard to the various topics treated in this article, for in it are found polytheism, henotheism, pluriform monotheism, trinitary speculations, and even a kind of monotheism. Especially in the time of the New Kingdom (16th–11th century BC) and later, there arose theological speculations about many gods and the one god, involving concepts that belong to the realm of pluriform monotheism. These ideas are especially interesting when related to trinitarian conceptions, as they sometimes are. In a New Kingdom hymn to Amon are the words: “Three are all gods: Amon, Re and Ptah . . . he who hides himself for them [mankind] as Amon, he is Re to be seen, his body is Ptah.” As Amon he is the “hidden god” (deus absconditus); in Re, the god of the sun, he becomes visible; as Ptah (see photograph), one of the gods of the earth, he is immanent in this world.
Much attention has been given to the reform of Egyptian religion as effected by the pharaoh Akhenaton (Amenophis IV) in the 14th century BC. This reform has been judged in many ways, favourably and unfavourably; it is, however, clear that Akhenaton's theology, if not fully monotheistic, in any case strongly tends toward monotheism. It is even possible to follow the gradual development of his ideas in this direction. At first he only singled out Aton, one of the forms of the sun god, for particular worship, but gradually this kind of henotheism developed in the direction of exclusive monotheism and even took on the intolerance peculiar to this religious concept. The names of the other gods were to be deleted. This un-Egyptian intolerance was probably the main reason for the speedy decline of this
creed.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topi
c/390101/monotheism
Sorry I like to use logic and rational thought in matters of religion. I know that about 90% of what I was told and tuaght is utter BS but I still practice the faith b.c like everyone else in life I feel that it is better to believe there is a greater force over this world however logically I know thats utter BS. IE eating pork shelfish and whatever else wont make me sick but I do it b.c I feel I need to have some faith in a higher being to keep me humbled as a person.
To be clear, did you say that you believe that every document artifact or shred of evidence used to PROVE Christianity is false?
Science, reason, and spirit. I like that.
I also want to be clear that I believe in science. I believe that there are three planes in which all of us exist: physical (science), mental (reason), and spiritual (spirit). To be without any one of these is to be incomplete.
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