U S Aid to Israel Violates the U S Constitution :: U4Prez, Social Networking For Politics

Tuesday, January 6, 2009

U.S. Aid to Israel Violates the U.S. Constitution

I am sure that many of you are familiar with the First Amendment to the United States Constitution which clearly states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or
of the press; or the right of the people to peaceably assemble and to
petition the Government for a redress of grievances." (1)

This very easy to understand amendment has routinely entered into America's court system and just about any government activity that can be even remotely construed as "endorsing" one religion over another, is attacked in court. A few examples of this are when the U.S. Supreme Court prohibited prayer at any graduation ceremonies if they were directly conducted or sponsored by a public school board; school officials are prohibited from adding a prayer to the schedule of a sports game and even the Christmas displays on the front lawn of a town hall are deemed illegal as they are considered an endorsement of religion by government.

Despite the fact that all of these government activities are ruled clear violations of the "separation of church and state", how is it that America spends over 3-6 billion dollars a year in federal foreign aid, military assistance and loan guarantees to Israel?

Israel is a Jewish theocracy. Their own Declaration of Independence describes Israel as a "Jewish State". The Israeli Government implements certain policies based on Orthodox Jewish interpretations of religious law.
According to the International Freedom Report of 2004, issued by the U.S.
Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, the Israeli "government does not recognize Jewish marriages performed in the country other than those performed by the Orthodox Jewish establishment. The Orthodox Jewish establishment determines who can be buried in Jewish state cemeteries and limits that right to those accepted as "Jewish" by orthodox definitions. In addition the national airline El Al and public buses in most cities do not operate on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, although some private bus companies operate on the Sabbath. According to the law, Jews in most professions may not work on the Sabbath. Additionally, streets in some Orthodox Jewish neighborhoods are closed to vehicles on the Sabbath." In this same report it states that "Israeli law recognizes the "religious communities" as carried over from those recognized under the British Mandate. These are: Eastern Orthodox, Latin (Roman Catholic), Gregorian-Armenian, Armenian-Catholic, Syrian (Catholic), Chaldean (Uniate), Greek Catholic Melkite, Maronite, Syrian Orthodox, and Jewish. Three additional religious communities have subsequently been recognized–-the Druze, the Evangelical Episcopal Church, and the Baha'i."(2)

State recognized religions? Did you notice the absence of Islam?

In this same report it declares that "the Interior Ministry now has jurisdiction over religious matters concerning non-Jewish groups. The Prime Minister's office has jurisdiction over the nation's 137 religious councils, which oversee the provision of religious services." It goes on to state that "the State continues to finance some 40 percent of the councils' budgets, and local authorities fund the remainder. However, an Arab advocacy group charged that, for the most part, the State did not allocate adequate or proportional funds for the provision of religious services in Arab towns and villages."

Examples of Israel being a theocracy go on and on. Under the Israeli Law of Return, the Government grants automatic citizenship and residence rights to Jewish immigrants and their families. Residency rights are not granted to relatives of converts to Judaism, except to children of female converts who are born after the mother's conversion is complete. The Law of Return does not apply to non-Jews or to persons of Jewish descent who have converted to another faith.

Even the building codes for places of worship are enforced selectively based on religion. In 2002 a local Bedouin began construction without a permit of a mosque in the village of Tal el-Malah in the southern part of the country to service the 1,500 residents who would otherwise need to travel more than 12 kilometers to the nearest mosque. In February 2003, the Government inspector warned the village that the building was illegal, and in May 2003 officials demolished the building. In contrast, according to a Tel Aviv municipal council member, there are approximately 100 illegal synagogues in Tel Aviv, some within apartment buildings and others in separate structures.(2)

It is not just against Muslims that they discriminate. They also discriminate against Christians. For instance, Christian ministers have real difficulties obtaining visas to enter into East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Catholic religious leaders have argued publicly that the visa problems are part of a strategy by the Israeli Government to reduce the presence of Palestinian Christians in the occupied territories outside East Jerusalem. They reported that visas for priests to work in the West Bank were almost impossible to obtain, while priests posted to East Jerusalem encountered less difficulty. According to Church leaders, the visa problem had worsened significantly over the past year.(2)
The list of instances of damage to Christian religious sites and places of worship by the Israeli government is too long for me to list in this but they are numerous.

If it is illegal for the US Government to endorse one religion over another,
then it must follow that it is illegal for the US government to provide
direct monetary aid to the State of Israel because everything making up the State of Israel is based upon one thing and one thing only: religion. Israeli law has codified the Jewish religion as being above all others.

Strong congressional support for Israel has resulted in Israel’s receiving benefits that are not available to other countries. For example, Israel can use U.S. military assistance both for research and development in the United States and for military purchases from Israeli manufacturers. In addition, all U.S. foreign assistance earmarked for Israel is delivered in the first 30 days of the fiscal year. Most other recipients normally receive their aid in installments. Congress also appropriates funds for joint U.S.-Israeli missile defense programs.(3) These privileges are all given to Israel based on religion.

Beginning in 1973, Israel has received grants from the State Department’s Migration and Refugee Assistance fund to assist in the resettlement of migrants to Israel. These funds are being payed to aid in the re-location of Jews and Jews only to Israel.

Foreign aid by the United States Government to the State of Israel is an
illegal violation of the First Amendment to the US Constitution. This aid is a direct endorsement and sponsorship of one religion over all others. The financial aid provided to Israel is in direct violation of the U.S. Constitution's separation of Church and State and must end immediately.

Sources:

1) U.S. Constitution: First Amendment.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitutio
n/amendment01/

2) International Religious Freedom Report 2004
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and
Labor
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2004/3
5499.htm

3) CRS Report for Congress on U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel. January 2,
2008.
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pd
f

posted by lucky_num1 at 1:03 AM

Comments

what did i do

yes it has cart.

Getting Lucky Show - 11:00 central time tonight Guest call-in number: (646)
716-8633 http://www.blogtalkradio.com/lucky
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Thanks KT. I am glad that us jews can show some solidarity.

excellent blog lucky

That article has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing. There are plenty of mosques that get attacked too .... so what? It is nothing more than a diversion. I am not a bigot one bit. I attack Israel for their policies. You can't figure out the difference? Anyone who says that Israel should not get money from US taxpayers is now a bigot? LMFAO.

Isolationism is the complete withdraw of contact with others, how is not giving money to people isolationism? Or do you also have to pay people to talk to you? the isolationist policies are when you refuse to have diplomatic relations with the rest of the world. but i can see how in the trotskyite perspective you global socialist are in favor of wealth redistrabution.

**** with it lets be isolationist and wait till the MAD deterrant is violated by insane people thereby treating all people to the same treatment ......... death

MM's right, stop being a bigot and end all foreign aid since it undermines the US Taxpayers.

But by all means take Isreal away from the jewish race....... that way you assure heir genocide as a race

you mean Islam international Lucky? the ame group who gave supplys to the skinnys during somalia? yes those would be the ones

updated 7:12 a.m. HT, Tues., Jan. 6, 2009 PARIS - Signs are mounting that the conflict in Gaza is starting to spill over into violence in Europe's towns and cities, with assaults against Jews and arson attacks on Jewish congregations in France, Sweden and Britain. Assailants rammed a burning car into the gates of a synagogue in Toulouse, in southwest France, on Monday night. A Jewish congregation in Helsingborg, in southern Sweden, also was attacked Monday night by someone who "broke a window and threw in something that was burning," said police spokesman Leif Nilsson. Neighbors alerted rescue services before the fire took hold. Someone also started a blaze outside the premises last week. And on Sunday slogans including "murderers ... You broke the cease-fire" and "don't subject Palestine to ethnic cleansing" were daubed on Israel's embassy in Stockholm. Story continues below
↓ -----------------------------------------------
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here ------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------- In Denmark, a 27-year-old Dane born in Lebanon of Palestinian parents is alleged to have injured two young Israelis last week, opening fire with a handgun in a shooting that police suspect could be linked to the Gaza crisis. France has Western Europe's largest Jewish and Muslim communities and a history of anti-Semitic violence flaring when tensions in the Middle East are high. In 2002, some 2,300 Jews left France for Israel because they felt unsafe. President Nicolas Sarkozy warned in a statement Tuesday that France would not tolerate violence linked to the Gaza crisis. A day earlier, his interior minister said she was concerned about the prospect of contagion and met with the heads of the two main Muslim and Jewish groups and police officials to stress the need to "preserve national unity." Damage to the synagogue in Toulouse was limited to a blackened gate, and there were no injuries even though a rabbi was giving a course to adults inside, authorities said. They said unlighted gasoline bombs were also found in a car nearby and in the synagogue's yard. A local Jewish leader, Armand Partouche, said he believed the assailants had planned to torch the synagogue, but fled when the building's alarm went off. "It could have been very, very serious," Partouche said in a telephone interview. "There were people inside; there could have been deaths." Click for related content Interactive map: Track the crisis in Gaza Q&A: The history behind Israel's Gaza strikes He said Jewish leaders are asking Toulouse authorities for reinforced security for the city's synagogues. "We really fear that anti-Semitism will spring up again and that the current conflict will be transposed to our beautiful French republic," he said. In Britain, the Community Security Trust, a Jewish defense group, said it had seen a rise in anti-Semitic incidents since the start of Israel's offensive against Gaza. The group said it had recorded 20-25 incidents across the country in the past week that it believed were connected with Gaza, including an arson attempt on a synagogue in north London on Sunday. London police are investigating the attack, in which suspects splashed flammable liquid on the door and set it on fire. 'It could get worse' Community Security Trust spokesman Mark Gardner said that in another incident last week a gang of 15-20 youths walked along the main street in Golders Green, a largely Jewish neighborhood in north London, shouting "Jew" and "Free Palestine" at passers-by. "It could get worse," Gardner said. "We tend to see these things happen in waves." The government in Belgium on Tuesday ordered police in Antwerp and Brussels to be on increased alert after recent pro-Palestinian protests ended in violence and dozens of arrests. Police said burning rags were shoved through the mailbox of a Jewish home in Antwerp last weekend. Damage was limited and no arrests were made. In the Danish shooting, one Israeli man was shot in the arm and another in the leg as they were selling hair care products in a shopping mall. Eli Ruvio, who owns the company that operated the stands, said his employees have been harassed by Muslim youths since they set up three kiosks in the shopping center in August. "They kept cursing and shouting at us," Ruvio told The Associated Press. He added that the Muslim youths also threw mud and firecrackers at the employees and spat at them. Ruvio recalled an episode Dec. 27 when some of the youths shouted "slaughter all the Jews." "I told my employees not to speak in Hebrew and lie about where they come from, they should say there were from Spain or somewhere else. If people ask you where you are from, never say you're from Israel," he said. More on Israel | Gaza sounds like bigotry to me you should love it lucky

So now that we have established that it is highly unlikely that Kim ever set foot in Lebanon during the 1990's .... we can move on to her statement that "The only people terrorizing the Lebanese is Hezbollah.Not the Israeli's.That is a 100% fact". It never ceases to amaze me that Israel is always right and every other country is always wrong. All I have to do to disprove your statement is show that 1 civilian died because of Israel bombing. And here it is - lol - An assessment made by Amnesty International reported on Israeli attacks on civilian infrastructure stated that "the evidence strongly suggests that the extensive destruction of public works, power systems, civilian homes and industry was deliberate and an integral part of the military strategy, rather than "collateral damage" – incidental damage to civilians or civilian property resulting from targeting military
objectives." http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/in
fo/MDE18/007/2006

Have a good evening MM, always a pleasure debating with you :)

Some do unofficial trips to Israel, but thats not school sponsored directly, and doesn't include Lebanon. There was an American ban on travel to Lebanon between 1985 and 1997... I wonder how many high schools are scheduling spring break trips to Jamaica, with a side trip to Cuba, lol.

I'm out

Yes LC many did do that.... they were limited strictly in areas of both palistine and Israel

People go there all the time,maybe not as much now...but,it happens!

Maybe Israel can? They have the money.
lol ---------------------------------------------
We are $11 trillion in debt. We can't afford to send aid to other countries anymore. Obama is suggesting we will run deficits of at least $1 trillion per year for the foreseeable future. Who will bail out the United States when it needs money to survive? posted by maditude on 01/06/2009 @ 6:49 PM

I have several friends in south Isreal as well as one in the west bank. I think he put it best When murder starts such as the car bombing of Isreali citizens it will never stop UNTIL both sides agree Quote by Kuba'shi west bank 1985

A public American high school sent you to Lebanon and Israel in the 1990's to study for a semester? I'd have called for the heads of the entire school board, lol.

A historical trip into a war zone?

All three of us are about the same age...

It was a historical trip...we did a semester on the Middle East!So,those that could go,were able to go.And it was fun.

Considering that Kim is about the same age as me ... I would assume that she was in high school from about 1992-1995. Precisely the time that Israel and Lebanon were engaged in battle. I am going to have to agree with L.C. I call b.s. on that one.

I agree, we should be helping our own situation first. We give billions per year to Israel alone...

LC; I would love to go back to Israel...but,due to tighter restrictions now,a war,etc...not likely happening anytime soon!LOL

That really suprises me. What was the educational function?

The peaceful Palistinians blew up 200+ Marines remember? I wonder why we don't support them more?

I agree Mad...We need to stop spending money we don't have.If some of our allies don't get their aid,then so be it.We can't keep helping everyone.We need tot ake care of America first.Then we will go from there!

A lot of religious HS groups do... I also studied religion in college, but no mandatory groups overseas - never heard of that. I did sign up and deposit for a trip to Senegal (researching the slave trade) with my sociology professor, though was unable to go as I became quite ill (was for years later) before the trip took place.

A normal public HS.

We are $11 trillion in debt. We can't afford to send aid to other countries anymore. Obama is suggesting we will run deficits of at least $1 trillion per year for the foreseeable future. Who will bail out the United States when it needs money to survive?

are Israllis Kiling the islamic population in Isreal?? quick get that on the news LC it needs to be aired.......... cripes both sides have to want peace Isreal tried for 6 months no luck Palistine kept right on firing missles but somehow that will be Isreals fault to right? and trust me LC I'v e also been to the region

Alot of HS go over...for historical trips,etc. When I went in college...I was taking a religion course that was manadatory for curriculum!At the time,a trip came up for a trip related to the course,like a study group abroad.I took it!

Not particularly Kim ;) My question really was what kind of HS did you go to? Was it public?

Lol, neither. I don't invest myself that much in fiction, haha.

I am very curious as to what HS goes to the middle east.

You would be amazed who goes over to the Middle East...groups wise,etc!

I wonder if LC would be rooting for the Philistine giant Goliath or David?

Bull....... there was free acsess during quite a few yrs "at your own risk"

And Israelis get a free pass to murder thousands of civilians? You must be joking.

Clearance is given to HS and College groups...it just takes alot of time and patience for everythignt o clear,etc.It is harder now to go over there.But,we are talking years ago when I went.Things were easier then.

Additionally, what high school goes to Israel and Lebanon? And MM, reporters may go to both - WITH SPECIAL CLEARANCE. Trust me, I know my **** on this topic ;)

But there will be no real progress or peace until Israel starts treating the Palestinians correctly But they can murder israelis with impunity? Please LC.................

Oh. Was it kinda like the tours that the Israeli military is leading reporters on that are trying to conduct investigations?

Clearance is not given to HS or College groups- it is VERY serious and strict, so that is rather interesting how they finagled that one.

Again incorrect LC Thoma Smith and many other reporters have. Many in the CORPS have have it's called sneakin.......

I agree that at this point there is nothing to be done about correcting the ill done 60 years ago by a guilty feeling Europe. But there will be no real progress or peace until Israel starts treating the Palestinians correctly. It is interesting to note that every Israeli immigrant here that I know agrees, and that most Israeli citizens DO NOT support their government's actions - they actually compare it to the average American and how we feel about our govt and Bush.

LC: I went as a tour thing through high school,then through college.

so you wont mind if my 140 lb son slaps the stuffins out of you 400 times a day right lucky??

LC: No land was stolen at all.That is the issue here,and one that has gone on for 60 years plus.Enough is enough!There was a war,Israel won,well up to now,and that's it.No one will win this in the end.Until somene,Israel,Hamas,Hezbollah,Palestinians,etc take a stand and stop fighting...we will be dead for 200 years,and the war wills till be going on!

LOL LC I am 1/2 Apache what do you think? Ask RSobin about us.

That is not true at all Kim. Hizbollah and Israel EQUALLY terrorize them. I am curious btw how you have been to both nations, as you cannot enter Lebanon if you have been to Israel and vice versa, unless you have special governmental clearance...

I'm not saying we should ignore them entirely. I'm saying we're not picking our battles wisely. I see way too much grey area for us to take sides to the degree we are, which is putting us back in the world police position.

Israel is one of the wealthiest nations in the world with one of the best equipped armies in the world. You mean to tell me that a few guys with rocket launchers can beat their military? Oh ... but I almost forgot ... Israel is the poor little country that can only afford 100 million dollar jets. LMFAO.

why is it Isreals fault the palistinians were thrown out of the islamic nations?

Nice try lucky..... nope Israel as a nation who is tired of 400+ missles a day terrorizing their population is most of Israel is secular as well as their present leader

MM, what would you do if your land was stolen and you were forced out of the only home and way of life you've ever known? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

LC: The only people terrorizing the Lebanese is Hezbollah.Not the Israeli's.That is a 100% fact.I have been to Israel and Lebanon...unless you have bee there and spent time there...you don't know!I do blame Syria,Iran,etc for letting Hezbollah do whatever.But, until the weapons go completely silent,permanently,this will never end.And Hamas and Hezbollah will never cease to exist!

Until Israel learns to seriously get along with, and truly respect their neighbors, and in particular the residents of the land they now occupy, there isn't going to be peace. The abuse of the Palestinian people must end, and they must be allowed to return to their homes and live in peace as equals. Nothing else, besides ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, which seems to be the desired path now, is going to bring peace.

If we can sell our stockpiled of treaty banned weapons to Israel like the clusterbombs and wiley pete munitions to get our foreign aid money back that is an excellent deal. Cha Ching.

LC was that befor or after the palistinian car bombs in stores and markets as I recall that was in 70

Islam attacked Israel? What? So is Judaism attacking Gaza right now?

Lucky: That is where your wrong...They are protecting their soverignty...They are taking over Hamas areas for the most part.Which I am in favor of!This war over in the Middle East has gone on long enough.I tis time to have peace and live together without bombs flying through the air every 15 minutes!

In ignoring them entirly RSobin we guarantee WWIII which none of us will survive. I oppose globalism totaly thats why I oppose what the UN has become....................

Kim, I assure you, they terrorized the population of Lebanon - innocent civilian bystanders who had nothing at all to do with it. If Israel has a problem with Hizbollah, they need to take it up with them - meaning Syria and Iran. But they don't because it's easier to pick on the weak. The land belongs to the Palestinians, and they have every right to protect their soverignty from European/Asian invaders who treat them worse than dogs.

The UN has no legitmacy IMO...Now,that's a fact!

No. We don't have a sister nation. This nation is sovereign.

Actually, they have gone far beyond protecting their sovereignty. Bulldozing Palestinian homes and cutting off their water supply is not protecting your sovereignty.

Screw the UN..... do they dictate what we are allowed to support ? or did we lose our soverignty when I wasn't looking?

MM- you want US sovereignty, correct? In meddling in international affairs, we risk having that chipped away. We've spoken of this before with what the UN has become. The more we do this, the more we inch toward world government.

We are Israel's sister nation? What???

Israe is far from a terorist nation,not even close.And there is no proof that they are.Israel has been caught between Hamas and Hezbollah for years.All Israel has done is protect their sovereignty.And they have a right to do so!

As pper the argument the other night Rsobin the Apache and Navajo have been given back their lands ....... including CA LOL

The UN disapproves greatly of this present action, and was VERY outspoken against the war in 06.

Fine. I thought it would be more fun to have you all take over NY, lol.

you are incorrect LC with the approval of the UN this is an everyday thing in the middle east. As I said RSobin Islam attacked Isreal ...... not the other way around

Give the pagans NY? But I want California!!! Lol

Do we lead the world or does islamic law? we are Isreals sister nation..... we gave our word........ they didn't start it Islam did if you want to blame some "religion" for the wars in the ME you can blame Islam who were the driving force behind both "wars"and all the terriost attacks from 48 on......... you want to be fair? fair enough support Isreal

Are we actually improving things for them by launching attacks? What you said is the main reason I lean towards Israel in this. But mm, if someone attacked you over your religion, would you not cling to it even more?

Yes, they did use cluster bombs. Know whose tax money was used to buy the cluster bombs? American citizens. That is a fact. Know what their excuse was for using the cluster bombs? They claimed it was necessary to "to prevent rocket fire onto Israel". Sound familiar?
------------------------------------------------
During the July-August 2006 war in Lebanon, Israel used cluster munitions to counter Hezbollah rocket attacks. The United States apparently supplied some of the cluster weapons that Israel used in the conflict.13 Since the August 2006 Israeli- Hezbollah cease-fire, there have been a number of reported Lebanese civilian deaths and injuries from unexploded bomb remnants spread across a wide area of southern Lebanon. After the war, the U.S. Department of State’s Office of Weapons Removal and Abatement implemented a landmine and unexploded ordnance (UXO) humanitarian clearance program in Lebanon. The Department of State’s Directorate of Defense Trade Controls reportedly conducted an investigation focused on whether Israel violated confidential agreements with the United States that restrict Israel’s use of U.S.-supplied cluster munitions to certain military targets in non-civilian areas. On January 28, 2007, the State Department issued a preliminary report to Congress concluding that Israel may have violated the terms of classified U.S.-Israeli procurement agreements on the use of cluster bombs in populated areas. According to State Department spokesman Sean McCormack, “There were likely violations,” though he added that “This is a preliminary finding and because it also involves the agreements about use (of munitions), which are classified, I cannot get into the
details.” -------------------------------------
---- Israel is as much of a terroist as any other in the region. Their brutal campaign against Lebanon in the summer of 2006 - cluster bombs, the bombing of the international airport, etc was meant for no other purpose but to terrorize the civilians of Lebanon. They are just as guilty, or innocent, as the rest. posted by Learning Conformity on 01/06/2009 @ 6:01 PM

MM, what you are talking about actually happens much more in Asia.

I prefer this arguement as it applies to all foreign aid. The question of constitutionality of expenditures under the Taxing Clause, for the common defense and general welfare, was discussed by the famous Justice Joseph Story--a long-time member of the United States Supreme Court (1811-1845)--in his celebrated Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States (1833), where he stated in this connection (Section 919): "A power to lay taxes for any purposes whatsoever is a general power; a power to lay taxes for certain specified purposes is a limited power. A power to lay taxes for the common defence and general welfare of the United States is not in common sense a general power. It is limited to those objects. It cannot constitutionally transcend them. If the defence proposed by a tax be not the common defence of the United States, if the welfare be not general, but special, or local, as contradistinguished from national, it is not within the scope of the constitution. If the tax be not proposed for the common defence, or general welfare, but for other objects, wholly extraneous, (as for instance, for propagating Mahometanism among the Turks, or giving aids and subsidies to a foreign nation, to build palaces for its kings, or erect monuments to its heroes,) it would be wholly indefensible upon constitutional principles. The power, then, is, under such circumstances, necessarily a qualified power." (Emphasis added.)

RSobien: According to some,yes...according to others,no.Just depends who you ask!

This argument has NOTHING to do with Islamic law (which I don't think anyone here agrees with). Many industrialized nations think we are savages due to our own laws... Anyway, the point is that we are denying the Palestinians right to exist, but aiding in the takeover of their land. I suppose if Mexico reclaimed TX, you'd have no problem and say the US is wrong for having a problem with it? Israel DID indeed start these wars. Also, along your reasoning, are you saying that since North Americans are predominantly Christian we should give up one of the countries, or one of our states, to an underrepresented religion (or non-religion). Let's give the pagans NY, hehe.

ARE we the leader of the world, mm?

Do they have the right to make women slightly less than breeding animals? To stone them to death for BEING raped?To discout their esimony just because they are women and thus...... chattle to be used as sexual slaves till they are tired of them?

We became the judge and jury when we started acting like the world's police!!

Yes. The Israelis have done a good job at seeming to be the better people. But that's largely because they can afford it.

alright Rsibin, how about this? Why should Israel give up what little they have when palistine is overwhelmingly islamic and so as crush pointed out is the rest of the middle east? Do we have the moral resposibility as the leader of the world to deny Israels right to exsist? Does shiria law have the right to become the weight and measure of human rights as per UN resolution? do the islamic nations have the right to rape to death women with impunity? do they have the right to mutilate women? Do they have the right to kill with impunity? Isreal didn't start these wars they have been under attack for the entre time

Exactly RS, I think that people forget that Palestinians are people too :) People screwed over royally, and only want the human rights and soverignty that we go to war with other countries for violating.

The point really is that the USA should not be be Israel's sugar daddy (or anyone else), which is exactly what we are. Yes pookums, whatever you want honey...

I understand your point, mm. But, when did we become the judge and jury of the world? I sympathize with the Israelis, but what of the Palestinians who lost their country? When we describe every tactic they use as "terrorist," we effectively rob them of the moral right to defend themselves. We are making them sub-human. And THAT is a slippery slope.

EVERYONE came out against them in those attacks, even the USA. They used cluster bombs that killed and maimed scores of civilians (and still are scattered around, waiting to be picked up by innocent children), and bombed the international airport and other areas of Beirut - places they knew very well that had nothing to do with Hizbollah. I suppose that if a kid shoots a BB gun at a neighbors house that gives the neighbor to murder and burn down the whole neighborhood in a drunken rampage...

Or you me?

The only reason Israel has ever bombed Gaza,lebanon is if they were provoked or attacked by Hamas or Hezbollah.And the instance your referring tow as because Hezbollah sent rockets towards Jerusalem.I would retaliate also.If that part of the world would play nice,we wouldn't have these issues!

In all fairness, RSobin shold I be able o pnch you with inpunity because of your beliefs?

Israel is as much of a terroist as any other in the region. Their brutal campaign against Lebanon in the summer of 2006 - cluster bombs, the bombing of the international airport, etc was meant for no other purpose but to terrorize the civilians of Lebanon. They are just as guilty, or innocent, as the rest.

So really, how much difference is there between military actions and terrorism. Both are intended to "shock and awe" the enemy into submission, and both kill people just as dead.

MM- in fairness, people can only use what they have. Getting right down to it, is there a difference between a bomb dropped by a jet vs. A bomb strapped to someone's chest (other than the pilot surviving)?

you will find they are one and the same........ such as Saudi

Name those nations LC and then name the ones who have tounge in cheeck supported terrorism

You then as now tried to use the first amendment as an arguement for it It was last year and you know damned well the records are gone. It was my first major disagreement with you I remember it well

Some Middle Eastern nations are our allies, and also, Jews aren't the only ones persecuted for a long time. I'm still waiting for the UN to give women their own nation, as we have been persecuted longer than anyone, maybe the Greek isle of Lesbos, or any other land that has ever had a female dominated society?

I didn't know that LC my apologies lucky and LC I was unaware of that feature

Once again. Musicman is spouting off lies in order to justify his religious convictions. Post the proof that I ever said this. Once again you slander but never back a single thing up.
------------------------------------------- don
't forget he was in support of the removal of all religious symbols on government property including arlington national cemitary posted by musicman on 01/06/2009 @ 5:36 PM

Saudi? is that the best you can do? the wealthyest nation in the world per capita? what do they need our aid FOR ? another 911? please..... try to make sense lucky

Lucky...We don't send aid to Saudi Arabia cause they don't need it.They take in from oil exports more money than the 2 largest industries in the US combined!

Crush - people are able to delete messages on their blog posts.

Lebanon is a moderate democracy Crush. What did the USA do to help this ally? Gave Israel billions of dollars, the jet fuel and cluster bombs and other assistance to kill civilans there.

he has "special rights"

don't forget he was in support of the removal of all religious symbols on government property including arlington national cemitary

Does lucky have moderator priviledges, or is it because this is his post?

The US doesn't give near as much money to Saudi Arabia. Israel receives more aid from the US than anyone and they are the largest recipient of foreign aid in the world. Like I said ... I don't support aid to any of those countries so your argument holds no water.

We would if they were a moderate democracy, LC. Look at Turkey. They are just shy of 100% Muslim, but we don't have a problem with them, do we?

If they were our ally and were the ones persicuted for the last 700 yrs probably LC

WOW, I post about twenty countries that have Muslim countries above 95%, and this clown's rebuttal is that Lebanon isn't on the list? What are you even talking about? Why do you only have problems with the country that is 80% Jewish? You don't have a page that condemns US aid to Saudi Arabia (100% Muslim) why is that? The Star of David bothers you, but "there is no other god but allah and Muhammad is his messenger" does not?

I would say our tithe to the UN is far larger than our aid to Isreal and if obama gets his way it will be 800+ bllion more per year

If that's the case,Lucky...so,be it.But,still your argument about stopping aid to Israel based on the 1st Amendment is so weak,it couldnt hold a half cup of water!

I wonder how this would all go if Israel was a nation mainly of devout Muslims... Would we still give them so much?

naw not lucky he believes in the first amendmant it just doesnt apply to him....... sorta like the rules

Once again Crush. You and musicman resort to name calling because you can't put forth a real argument.

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there is no support whatsoever in the first amendment for you arguement lucky ...... face it

The US government says that they get the most. Look at the budget. "Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II."

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No Kim Lucky says it's all religious............therefore we all know he couldn't possibly be wrong....

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Lucky; Maybe the reason they get their money is due to a cerain arrangment,there is no telling why. And who says Israel gets benefits,bigger or smaller, than others?Japan get s ahuge share,England/Ireland get a good share,Germany gets more than Ireland,due to the fact England subsidizes for them.So,every country is different depending on the circumstances! Just depends!

I am deleting only comments that don't contribute to the topic at hand. Keep making

Additionally, I think some should do some research regarding Israel's path to citizenship...

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I notice that Crush left Lebanon off that list. I would also like to note that it would be a huge mistake to lump all "Muslim" countries together - the are quite different. Same as all others.

***** This comment was deleted by: lucky_num1 due to inappropriated content *****

So why should American taxpayers pay anything at all to any of these countries? Where in the Constitution does it say that American taxpayers have to pay to support another nation?

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Iran 98% Muslim, Iraq 95, Saudi Arabia 100, Libya 100, Maldives 100, Mauritania 100, Oman 100, Qatar 100, Somalia 100, UAE 100, Turkey 99, Yemen 99, Pakistan 97, Morocco 99, Kuwait 95, Jordan 95, Indonesia 95, Guinea 95, Afghanistan 99, Algeria 98, Bahrain 99.... and your beef is with Israel at 80% Jewish??? At least in Israel, you aren't killed for leaving Judaism.

So why does Israel receive certain benefits that other countries don't receive? If it is for human interests ... then why do they receive a dis-proportionate amount of funding? Shouldn't countries that are not among the wealthiest in the world get a larger proportion of funding? Why do they receive their check at the beginning of the year when all other countries get payed out over the course of the year?

***** This comment was deleted by: lucky_num1 due to inappropriated content *****

Trying to get back to the topic at hand and getting past the typical Arab-Israeli fight that always ensues, one of the biggest arguments the pro-Israeli lobby makes concerning their reception of US aid is that the US is supporting the only stable democracy in the region. While I can certainly understand no longer funding Jews emigrating to Israel simply because they're Jewish, I don't think that holds true for all aspects of aid. When we deliver military backup, for instance, is it to protect synagogues and religious schools? Or is it to protect the sovereignty of the political entity that is Israel? I suppose what I'm saying is, is it possible to separate the two? Can such a distinction be made? Can the US give aid to Israel, or any other country deemed "theocratic" (I'm still not sure that's a correct term, they are a constitutional republic, I don't recall their court system being run by a bunch of rabbis, as is the case with, say, Iran, whose power is indeed run by mullas), ensuring the money goes to political, military, and social entities and not to religious ones? Is that splitting the hair too close? Or is this indeed plausible, especially with an ally as close to the US as Israel is?

I agree wholeheartedly with Arjay.I tried to explain my point,but he did it better.When we give aid to Israel,Iraq,Japan,Latin America,etc it isn't for religious purposes,it is for human interest.So,your arguent about the 1st Amendment still doesnt hold water. But,I see what your trying to say...but,still is a very weak ideology!

You can't debate using facts so you resort to name-calling. Nice job.

No ... I equate Israel to being a religious theocracy .. which is the same thing that the Taliban is. It is just a different religion.

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You equate Israel to the Taliban? WOW

No. I do call on banning aid to them too. The fact of the matter is that we don't give them even a quarter as much money.
----------------------------------------------
----- Saudi Arabia is 100% Muslim, so is Somalia. Iran's official state religion is Islam. Why aren't you calling to ban their aid? Veeery eeenteresting. posted by crushnik on 01/06/2009 @ 4:51 PM

What bothers me more is that Saudi Arabia's has a sword on it and says that my religion is false: "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his Messenger" No room for Jesus in Saudi. But you don't seem to be bothered by that, now do you?

***** This comment was deleted by: lucky_num1 due to inappropriated content *****

No. I don't push for the funding of Islamic countries either. I treat them equally. You however think that Israel should be an exception to the rule. Why don't you support funding the Taliban? Same thing. It is a religious theocracy.

If they were anything but a Jewish state then why does their flag have the Star of David on it?

Why is everything that lucky pushes mirror that of what the Islamists are pushing? If it looks like a duck...

Lebanon is run by Hezbollah. Hezbollah is run by Iran. Hamas is run by Iran. Lucky is run by Iran. *Just seeing what lucky will censor.

why doesn't the Arab nations give up a little land for them?

What is in violation of the establishment clause is the government's nationalization of AIG, who offer Islamic Sharia financing. We are supporting religious institutions with our tax dollars, and it needs to be shut down immediately.

the lebanese an ally?while in support of known terriost groups? then why didn't they warn us about 911?

Why were the Palestinians barred from moving to the neighboring Muslim countries? Why were they killed by their own Muslim neighbors when they tried to cross?

If they are a Jewish state, then why aren't they 100% jewish? Like all of these Muslim countries that are 100% muslim? If Israel is such a mean country, why didn't Egypt, Jordan, and the other neighboring Muslim countries help the poor Palestinians out?

Exactly LC. There are nations around the world that have populations much larger than Israel with much lower per-capita incomes that don't even receive a tenth of what Israel receives from the US.

If the Palestinians were not illegally displaced (kicked off their own land), then why does even the US government call them refugees?

No. Israel is a State that is defined by religion so support of Israel is nothing more than support for a religion.

If its about strategy and stability, why does the USA provide so little assistance to Lebanon? The Lebanese people have long been an ally to us.

I will censor comments that have nothing to do with the debate. I reserve that right. If you post ignorant name-calling garbage that has no intention on debating the issue ... yes, i will delete it.

your whole premise is that our support of Israel is totaly religious in nature, which is just flat wrong......thus your arguement for the support to be a violation of the 1st amendmant is also wrong one has nothing to do with the other

Saudi Arabia is 100% Muslim, so is Somalia. Iran's official state religion is Islam. Why aren't you calling to ban their aid? Veeery eeenteresting.

Israel is a Jewish state by every sense of the word. Their own Declaration of Independence declared them as a Jewish State. In no way can they be considered anything but a Jewish state and they don't treat the minority population the same. Yes, I do want to make that case. The support for Iran, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan should be terminated as well. What does 9-11 have to do with Israel or hijackers? How many hijackers came from Palestine? None.

Is lucky censoring comments? What was the censored comment? That might be more of a violation of the first amendment than supporting another moderate democracy.

well lucky?

If one were to put the shoe on the other foot, and Israel sent suicide bombers into Palestinian restaurants and school buses, and Gaza or the West Bank were the moderate democracy, it would be totally different. It's not about religion, it's about stability and freedom.

Israel is not a Jewish state - look at the demographics. almost 20% are Arabs. Now what about Iran, Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan? Why do you not make the case that support for these countries should be terminated? How many of the 9/11 attackers came from Israel?

well lucky?

your interpritation of the reasons for support are suspect lucky. period

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So should we then ban all assistance whatsoever to Muslim nations?

delete all you want...... it won't do you any good

What else is our support for Israel based on? Nothing. It is religion and religion only. Religion defines Israel.

governments action is not-secular. It is based on religion. 2. Their purpose is to aid in a religious theocracy which advances one religion over all others. 3. There is extreme entaglement between the Jewish religion and the motives which give Israel preferential treatment over all other nations. If this was not the case then why is a country with one of the highest-per-capita incomes receiving taxpayer money? posted by lucky_num1 on 01/06/2009 @ 4:33 PM That is YOUR opinion lucky.......nothing more

Lemon v. Kurtzman, 91 S. Ct. 2105 (1971) Established the three part test for determining if an action of government violates First Amendment's separation of church and state: 1) the government action must have a secular purpose; 2) its primary purpose must not be to inhibit or to advance religion; 3) there must be no excessive entanglement between government and religion. _______________________________________ _________ 1. The U.S. governments action is not-secular. It is based on religion. 2. Their purpose is to aid in a religious theocracy which advances one religion over all others. 3. There is extreme entaglement between the Jewish religion and the motives which give Israel preferential treatment over all other nations. If this was not the case then why is a country with one of the highest-per-capita incomes receiving taxpayer money?

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Yes Lucky I am well aware that Christianity is unfairly treated there as a matter of fact, I was the one who brought to attention the fact that Islamics an jews can immigrate but christians can't.......... but thats not the issue. The premise of your arguement is the first amendmant. It's purpose was to protect Religion from the states ability to ban, and or forbid. Such as England did with the Church of England being the Only allowed Belief aside from aithisim.Back then another belief like say Bah'i would be cosidered a case of herisy and as such against the STATE law. posted by musicman on 01/06/2009 @ 3:08 PM

Oh hello BD or is it lucky in guise?

Now please explain to me how I just "busted" myself. What did I bust myself on? Oh ... I am secretly a Muslim? lmfao. I am not going to allow you to put forth your ignorant racist garbage on my page any longer.

Point to Lucky_num1. Musicman isn't even arguing the merits of his points. It appears that Musicman is just name calling.

***** This comment was deleted by: lucky_num1 due to inappropriated content *****

Now your totally off topic because you lost the debate.

In other words you busted yourself, don't like it and it's damdging to your blog against Isreal. Thank you

Well, you are just being childish at this point. If I say that I don't believe in the Koran then either you can take my word for it or not. I could care less.

you make me chuckle...... when Crushnik misquoted the Koran you told him to instantly prove or retract that...... then you gave the "proper" quote........ seems a little defensive for someone who claims to not believe in the koran

And RSobien was right. This is a religious war but it is also over territory. Why are American taxpayers paying for another countries defense? That is not Constitutional which is why I laugh anytime you claim to be a Conservative or a Constitutionalist.

Israel does have a right to defend itself. Just not with my money.

I don't defend Islam. You say that I defend Islam because I refuse to give a religious theocracy a free pass to cut off their water, bulldoze their homes, etc. No, your religion is obviously not allowing you to see someone that treats all religions equally. I call bullshit on Islam just as I call bullshit on beliefs that the church teaches. After all ... the bible itself warns of crooked preachers like you.

Isreal is at war with Palistine for constant attacks even during the so- called cease fire. Why does Isreal not have a right to defend themselfs?

as for proof of hatred of christianity over Islam I submit that you ridicule Christianity at every opproutunity ..... attempt to ridicule the people who belive in Christianity, and are consistantly against Isreal even when they ae just defending themselfs from terrioists. I have yet to see you do anything but defend Islam

You said it not me. Israel is fighting Palestine. So how are they preventing "islamic fundamentalists from gainig the ability to bring about thermonuclear war" ? "The support for Isreal is NOT for religions benifit. It is for the mantaining of an ally and partner in the ME, to prevent Geocidal war in the region, and to prevent insane islamic fundamentalists from gainig the ability to bring about thermonuclear war."

stick that postit **** up your orafice unless you are willing to post where I said PALISTINE was close to having a bomb

Oh. Palestine is now about to obtain nuclear weapons? LMFAO. You really are an ignorant person. If there is genocide going on ... it is clear that the genocide is being carried out on the Palestinian people.

Where have I ever stated that I hate any religion? I treat all religions equally. Where did I say that I hate Christianity. Please post this. I am anxious to see the proof that you have. How do I hate Jews? The fact of the matter is I don't. In fact, I believe in the same God as the Jews ... so your ignorance is apparent. No, I don't support Islam either but you can't stand the fact that I don't hate them because of their religion. Your hatred is apparent. Anyone who poses questions regarding religion is automatically a heretic, a liar and a evil person to you. So please explain to me how I would hate my entire family which are Christians.

The support for Isreal is NOT for religions benifit. It is for the mantaining of an ally and partner in the ME, to prevent Geocidal war in the region, and to prevent insane islamic fundamentalists from gainig the ability to bring about thermonuclear war. While your hatred of Christianity is clear and consise and you despite of all things jewdao- christian clear, your opinion of and support of Islam is not quite so clear in it's reason....... I suggest bigotry

No. People such as you have distorted the intentions of the founding fathers which was to keep religion and state separate.

So why does Israel get preferential treatment? Out of all the nations in the world they receive more money than anyone ... so is this done for any reason other than religion? No. This is done solely on religion. Israel has one of the highest per-capita incomes in the world. In fact, Americans pay more in benefits to Israeli's than they actually receive themselves. lmfao.

people such as you have destryed the spirit of that amendment for your own purpose, which is to ridicule and censor religious beliefs with impunity

In 2002, the Government of Israel, citing security concerns, began constructing a barrier in the occupied territories to separate the West Bank from Israel and East Jerusalem. Construction of the barrier has involved confiscation of property owned by non-Jews, displacement of Christian and Muslim residents, and tightening of restrictions on freedom of access to places of worship for non-Jewish communities. The separation barrier has made it difficult for Bethlehem-area Christians to reach the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem, and it makes visits to Christian sites in Bethany and in Bethlehem difficult for both Palestinian Christians and foreign pilgrims. The barrier and its checkpoints also impede the movement of clergy between Jerusalem and West Bank churches and monasteries, as well as the movement of congregations between their homes and places of worship.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2004/35499.ht
m

Oh ... and by the way Musicman - take a look at the International Religious Freedom Report 2004 Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor - Israel discriminates not only against Muslims but Christians too. The violations are numerous. http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2004/35499.htm

Actually, the first ammendment is there for both reasons. To protect the church against the state and to protect the state from the church. I don't support giving any religious theocracies money no matter what religion it is. I am not giving preferential treatment to one religion over another. In 1967 Israel proved that they could beat all the other countries that were around them hands down without our help. Despite this fact, U.S. aid to Israel has increased every year.

If you atttemt to use the first ammendmant as an argemnt, You will also have to explain that th first ammendmant is there to protect RELIGION from the state not the reverse. Also if sucessful your little arguement will hurt your friends in the middle east just as much as Isreal exept for one detail The Arab world would destroy Isreal and put all her people to death. But then again that has been you support all along hasn't it? and don't act like YOU yourself recognize all religons You don't.

The website for the United Israel Appeal organization, that we transfer the money to, clearly states that "United Israel Appeal (UIA), as part of United Jewish Communities, is a principal link between the American Jewish community and the people of Israel. An independent legal entity, UIA is responsible for the distribution and oversight of funds raised by UJA-Federation campaigns in the US for programs of UIA's operating agent, the Jewish Agency for Israel (JAFI) and for securing and monitoring US grant funds for the immigration and absorption of Jewish refugees to Israel from countries of distress. It is with JAFI as our partner, that UIA assists American Jews to fulfill their ongoing collective commitment to contribute to and participate in the upbuilding of the Jewish State of Israel."

Between 1973 and 1991, the United States gave about $460 million for resettling Jews in Israel. Why are paying for a specific religious group to do anything?

We are sending them money to bring a particular religious group of people to settle there ... Jewish people. According to the CRS Report for Congress on U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel - "Beginning in 1973, Israel has received grants from the State Department’s Migration and Refugee Assistance fund to assist in the resettlement of humanitarian migrants to Israel. Funds are paid to the United Israel Appeal, a private philanthropic organization in the United States, which in turn transfers the funds to the Jewish Agency." That is a clear violation. I agree, if we are going to end aid to Israel for this reason .. then we need to do it equally to all nations. I have no problem with that. It is un-constitutional spending of American taxpayer money in the first place.

I'm going to go along with Kim on this one. While Israel is a Jewish state, we are not giving aid to Israel in the hope of them maintaining their religion. It is their political survival for which we give them assistance. Were we sending them money to build synagogues or print anti-Muslim propoganda, I think LC's argument would hold water better. Whether a country is secular or theocratic, a kingdom or a republic, whatever it wants to call itself is irrelevant. If we want to go into theocracies, there is one we actually went to war over recently and assisted in writing a Constitution with, containing aspects of Shariya law--IRAQ! Is not Saudi Arabia considered holy land as well, and yet they are among our closest allies in that region. We give aid all around the world, where Islam is the dominant religion, and without sifting through every single national constitution, I'm sure you will find many references to God, Islam, and religious law. We also give aid to Latin American countries, where Roman Catholicism is not only dominant, it's nearly universal. If we are going to end giving aid to Israel because such aid violates the First Amendment, then there are a whole lot of countries we need to pull aid from for the same reason. I believe, however, none of this aid violates the First Amendment, because it is not given with the specific interest to promote a religion, but rather, to promote political and human interests.

Sad to say, lucky hit it on the mark, I think. It's a holy war.

Thanks L.C. :)

I think Lucky won this one, hands down...

Lemon v. Kurtzman, 91 S. Ct. 2105 (1971) Established the three part test for determining if an action of government violates First Amendment's separation of church and state: 1) the government action must have a secular purpose; 2) its primary purpose must not be to inhibit or to advance religion; 3) there must be no excessive entanglement between government and
religion. _______________________________________
_________ 1. The U.S. governments action is not-secular. It is based on religion. 2. Their purpose is to aid in a religious theocracy which advances one religion over all others. 3. There is extreme entaglement between the Jewish religion and the motives which give Israel preferential treatment over all other nations. If this was not the case then why is a country with one of the highest-per-capita incomes receiving taxpayer money?

It is the separation of church and state. Can you please point me to the part of the constitution that states that Congress can give other countries American taxpayer money. It is a violation of the Constitution on several grounds and the preferential treatment of one religious group over all others is a violation.

But,still your argument has no basis.The 1st amendent ha snothing to do with aid to other countries,what so ever,so,therefore it is not a violation of the constitution!I am sure this has been tried before,and denied as lack of merit!

That is exactly my argument. We don't support religious theocracies.

I believe that his argument is that we should not be supporting theocracies, to which I agree.

Your argument is in valid and is in no way a violation of our constitution.We send aid to
israel,russia,mexico,australia,japan,korea,etc.So,
your argument makes no sense and is irrelevant.And it has no bearing what so ever on the 1st Amendment by any means!

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