Well, time to talk about ..... yaaaawnnn ...... HEALTH CARE again!
Let's take a look at what will be the joint resolution for what started as HR 3200, ie., The HEalth Care bill. It has changed considerably. Lots of amendments. But basically there are about 10 elements to the thing. Let's take a look at them one by one and see what you think:
1) As it stands, the bill will force people to buy insurance essentially. If you don't buy basic minimum federal standard health insurance, and are above the poverty level, you will be taxed, on a sliding scale basis - ostensibly to cover any eventual need you may have for health services, like emergency room after falling and breaking your back or something. Hel;l, since we are a decent society, we've made a rule that you HAVE to be treated at an emergency room if you are in peril. Since one of the tenets of this bill is to provide universal coverage in America, there are only 3 ways to do it:
a) Make people buy insurance,
b) Buy Insurance for everybody,
c) Insure everybody (this is the one I pick, since it would be cheaper by far).
2) Establishes fair play rules for the insurance industry. Yeah, big deal
3) Creates a new more competative marketplace for health insurance and sets minimum federal standards for health insurance coverage. There was a public option option, but that was optioned out because the insurance industry whined too much and of course the congressmen don't want to upset their buddies in the insurance industry.
4) Provides tax credits for poorer people so they can afford minimum standard insurance. Personally since it's all becoming government-funded in one way or another with all the freaking tax credits and such, it would make more sense to simply have a national health insurance and scrap all the bullshit, but that's just my opinion.
5) Taxes rich people more. ... Ya think? Of course taxes are gonna go up and rich people are targeted. Of course, under my plan, EVERYONE will pay their fair share, not just the working class and the wealthy. But, nobody wants to hear about it.. Oh well.
6) Without going into alot of stuff, they are gonna fix some bullshit with medicare.
7) They are going to raise payments for primary care physicians for medicaid. I guess they want wards of the states to have their own doctors too. They figure it will help keep the people healthier to have a doctor. Then, poor people won't have to either take the freaking taxi or increasingly AMBULANCES to the EMERGENCY ROOM every time they get sick or hurt. Hey it makes sense to me. Under my adminsitration, every American will be able to answer the following question: "Who's yer doctor?" The answer can be either "Dr. --------" or, " I don't want a doctor."
8) Puts the fire to the feet of the drug manufacturers over their giant ripoff with medicare partD.
9) Establishes much more fedearl oversight of our "health care system" here in America. Well since most health care is funded by the government in one way or another, I would think they shopuld have a say in it, maybe even trumping the insurance industry.
10) Establish "Best Practices" for delivery of health care. Ya think? I can't believe we don't have that now.
ESSENTIALLY, that's it. I prefer a cheaper, more effective, more efficient national health insuarnce, but since the poor insurance industry would go cry to their congressmen, I guess this is what we'll have to get for now. In my opinion it would be better to pass this legislation than to kill it. And if the Republicans kill it, and don't have some really, really clever ideas on how to fix this clusterfuck, then they will end up as pissed off at the Republican party as I am now.
-not spell-checked, sorry, the end --
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Who says I am defending the GOP u idiot! But notice how u now move away from Obama and the Dems because u know I am fucking right that they did nothing from 06 to 08 and u know it. Check and mate u silly baby.
There's a reason Republicans were swept out of office, it's because they oversaw the biggest ripoff this country has ever seen. Americans aren't stupid and until Republicans can gain their trust again, forget about it. I want to see the thieves and scoundrels and scumbags and hypocrits sent packing and return the Republican party to it's working class roots. Give me a trustworthy Republican party and I'm on board.
Erock, I would like to know why most Republican congressmen voted against the bailout, then turned around and voted FOR it after they had piled another $50 billion onto the bill? Answer me that? Bercause they are fucking thieves most of them and they probably used that few days between votes to short the piss out of their stocks and jump back in just in time for them to vote the bailout.
O wow thats it? LOL! But voted for the bailouts and other then that did nothing. So he is responsable his party had leadership of Congress from 06 onwards and so far just more of the same.
Yeah OK, Erock he voted against the irresponsible and reprehensible Bush war-time tax cuts.
Yep nothing to do with it as a US Senator... LOL! Yep he just sat by and did what to stop Bush ?? Nothing..... That is just as irresponsable u silly baby.
Smashey, I'm afraid you don't know what you are talking about regarding Carter and inflation. Inflation was rampant well before he arrived on the scene. So he took appropriate measures, albeit unpopular and it killed inflation. Then came Reagan - spend spend spend, deficit deficit deficit up up up. Shit, Reagan was one of the most fiscally irresponsible presidents in our lifetime, with the exception of George w Bush.
Now we have tough times again and it's the same shit. Let's blame Obama, who had nuthin to do with this shit, and sit around and bitch and moan about taxes and deficits and anything else. Holy shit, I can't wait for the ignorant Bush tax cuts to expire and hear the whining and complaining then! Whooo-weee!
Hawk those were tough times in America, the gas lines and such. Tough shit! What was Carter supposed to do about that? Suck the dicks of the arabs who were embargoing oil? Hell NO! He did what he should have, and we rationed and he set in place an energy policy that actually had us on the road to getting completely off the arab oil tit, until Reagan and Bush came and derailed that whole effort, got us heavily back on the tit and the next thing ya know here we are fighting a war over there which essentially started in 1991 - defending arab oil fields. Fuck it, you guys are so godammned brainwashed it ain't funny.
Boys, Carter was the most fiscally responsible president we've had in the last 25 years. Deficit spending was lower during his presidency than any time from WWII. You want to talk about inflation? Carter's comprehensive energy policy and his revamp of the federal reserve and subsequent installation of the inflation killer, Paul Volker were two key reasons we had low inflation during the 80s. I give Carter his due. He wasn't the best president we've ever had but he certainly isn't as bad as some think. One thing he did wrong was to ask Americans to sacrifice and conserve energy and actually ration fuel and things like that. Boy, that really pissed off alot of people, but it was the right thing to do.
That was the exact point I made earlier. I used to think FnG was just caught up in the Obama-mania but after the Carter comments I lost all hope. I remember the Carter years, I remember the high interst rates, the gas lines, the Iran mess, Carter was the worst president of my lifetime. FnG is smoking crack.
Carter was a fiscal moron beyond comparison (until now). His inflationary economic practices drove unemployment through the roof and prices even higher (sound familiar?). I used to give you the benefit of the doubt FnG but the Carter comments prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that either you are a liberal mouth piece parading as a conservative or just plain stupid.
As far as the Misery Index goes. Well, you can put off the misery, and put off the misery or you can live for today. We've been living for today for the past 20 years, and it's because the baby boom generation (aka: the ME generation) was so needy and greedy. Now we are finally going to have to pay the price. Carter was the most fiscally responsible president we've had since WWII. His deficit while compared to the GDP was the lowest of any president after WWII. Reagan came in and started browwing money to subsidize tax breaks and the deficit as compared to the GDP just started to balloon and didn't turn around until Clinton, whereupon it started to trun around and go down. Then, oops in came another Bush. For Republicans to claim they are the fiscally responsible party is pure unadulterated bullshit. The facts don't support that. All the Republicans do is offer tax breaks for the wealthy and it's on thebacks of the working class.
I like alot of the Paul Ryan proposal, Erock. It's good that warriors like him and I should meet on the battlefield of life. There is iron in his words for all Comanche to see.
FNG no on tax increases our government should just slash spending and then only spend what they take in each year. And if u want real reforms take a look at Paul Ryan's plan because more government is not a plan.
curly: Yeah, about that Misery Index, exactly under WHO did it end under (you ALL know the answer, especially you, fatngassy)?
Misery index......... enough said
He also totally didn't let the Iran Hostage Crisis happen. Oh wait...
yw
That's all I asked. Thank you, fatngassy.
C-Mach if you are referringto Jimmy Carter - yeah I think he was a good president. Among some of the things he did was to reform the federal reserve and put in place the cigar-chewing chairman, Paul Volker who was able to eventually get inflation under control.... He put together a comprehensive energy policy which set the stage for lower oil prices. .... He put together the Israeli/Egyptian Peace accords .... He began a well-thought build up of defense structure ... he was a fiscal conservative, a good man, and he set the stage for a better America. Oh yeah, he also essentially sacrificed his second term by doing what was right, not what was popular.
Erock, I guess the president could raise taxes, and cut spending dramatically, but I don't think that will help our dire economic situation at the moment. We have got to get back to economic growth before he can raise taxes. I believe he can do more to cut spending and I would hope we will see that in the coming year. Hopefully, we can wind down war spending a bit. Hopefully we'll see some real health care reforms that will save money.
fatngassy, I asked you to explain to me how he was a good president, not confirm your belief that he was a good president, which you stated before and didn't need to be repeated. erock: Ditto.
Yep tackling it with a record $1.8 trillion fiscal debt for the coming year! As for unemployment its not a long term down term far to many temporary jobs and as for the dollar please....... don't make me laugh.
By the way, let's talk about one thing Obama has done to deserve the massive onslaught of disdain heaped upon him by "conservatives"? Don't start with the ignorant rhetoric either. What's the worst thing Obama has done in your opinion?
I don't regard Obama as the "messiah" that's just stupid talk. But, he's certainly doing a good job. There is economic stability, we've returned to growth, the dollar is holding up and the unemployment rate is headed down. I beleive we'll see him tackling the deficit next, but it doesn't help when oppose reforms to our health care system - the costs of which are sending the whole country into deficit spending.
Yes I believe Jimmy Carter was a good president.
We all know that fatngassy is beyond help. How exactly was Jimmy Carter a good president? I'm sure there are some ways, but by Kung Fu Action Jesus he sucked as a president overall.
We all know that fatngassy is beyond help. How exactly was Jimmy Carter a good president? I'm sure there are some ways, but by Kung Fu Action Jesus he sucked as a president overall.
No FNG your the sniveling cry baby here who defend's Obama's behind closed doors deals to unions, and while attacking K-Street Lobbiest has lots of them in his White House and lets them craft policy. Hawk FNG is beyond help.
WTF... The last good president we had was Jimmy Carter?????? I am now convinced, you are a left wing liberal kook who is trying to convince Conservates that you are a Republican. You are beyond help, I don't know what else to say to you. The fact that I am against the policy's being pushed by this administration does not mean that I am whining, I beleive there is a better way to save this country from financial ruin. That is honest debate. You spew democrat talking points and say we are whining. We are mounting a defense of this great nation from the onslaught of a socialist agenda that will bring us to our knees. Keep defending you hero, I don't give a shit but stop with the bullshit about whining. Your the one whining, you whine everytime sonmeone says anything about you messiah. NOw do yourelf a favor and dislodge your nose from the annointed ones ass for a few minutes and take a look around. The country continues to sink!
Yes, Hawk, integrity. Did Clinton have integrity? - no! He was smart, but lacked integrity. Bush had integrity, but he was as dumb as a rock. Bush senior had neither integrity or intelligence and Reagan was as dumb as a rock. The last good president we had was Jimmy Carter. Now we finally have a good president again! Of course you don't think so and neither do most Americans, who have been coddled and spoiled for the past 20 years. We are faced with the downfall of America as we know it and all I hear is a bunch of whining and snivelling about the president. You guys are a bunch of spoiled turds.
Integrity? FnG, I hate to say it but you are full of shit!...
No I want him to do what is right so he won't fail but his policies are wrong. that is all I attack him I don't care about some of the other stuff that people attack him on but I do care about policy. Actually FNG I have given u at least one man within the GOP Paul Ryan u should go read his road map which even the CBO likes and says could work. But just because the GOP seems rudderless does not mean that we should keep going with the Democratic party which at the end of the day their plan is to spend more. thats it. spend.
You are right Erock, Finally after 20 years, we get a president who has some integrity and wouldn't ya know it - every Republican in the universe spends their entire lives attacking him for no good reason. They want him to fail! Imagine that! We are in a severe crisis and theyw ant him to fail! For what? So Republicans can gain power again? Why should Americans vote for Republicans? I haven't seen any real ideas, just a load of rhetoric.
Hmm have you seen the recent Presidents? If you think they are really representing the US I think you need to get back into reality.
I'm goin ta beddie bye nitey nite fellers.
The good thing about having the president kinda run things is that he is the absolute ONLY person in this country that represnets the interests of the entire country and everyone who lives in it so yes, I'd let George W Bush run it if he was president, and of course he'd have to run it as per the law.
I was being facetious BD, of course I'd not use Halliburton.
so you are going to have for profit companies as goernemtn contractors?,,, tell me how this will be cheaper,,, lol,, the government always over pays plain and simple. and you really want george w bush selecting who runs healthcare? cause for every pres you like, there is one you don't like and will be incharge of your system.
Beside BD, once a national health insurance takes effect, the private health insurance industry is out of business. That's why I'd include a provision to use existing portions of health trusts, nationwide that would be equivelant to the tax exemptions they've garnered, towards paying the insurance industry for economic damage and it would be done through eminent domain arbitration.
The administration. ie, The President - he's the guy that runs the country and the SSI. It'll be bureaucrats doin the work, as per the law. I don't know - you may prefer Mutual of Omaha or maybe Halliburton to do it, but I'm pretty sure the feds can do the job of the insurance companies a hell of alot better. Waht will they do? Collect revenue and write checks? Shit - that's the one thing the feds do real REAL good. And maybe there will be alot less fraud.
and who will appoint the people who over see a government run or funded healthcare program? the people who inbibe weiners from the insurance companies,,,,
Big Daddy, I couldn't agree more, but the insurance companies have there weiners inserted so far down the throats of just about every congressman out there and so far up our collective arses that it doesn't seem likely. They are pretty entrenched. The bigger the coop the better, adn I support a nationwide, nonprofit cooperative health insurance run by the federal Social Security administration as part of the American Social Security system.
In case you didn't understand the $11.20 statins thing, I pay $10 copay, the insurance company pays $1.20 and I pay the insurance company $100 per WEEK, for the rpiviledge of having them cover $1.20 of my drugs for 1 month.
FNG, your problem is simple and easy to fix. i also bet we can agree on it very easily.
REMOVE PROFITS FROM HEALTHCARE. there is no reason why anyone should profit off the pain and suffering of others. so if you eliminate the for profit healthcare provideers and made all insurance companies work and operaTE AS NONPROFITS THEN THERE WOULD BE A REAL REDUCTION IN COSTS. untile you go that route, you are only traqnsfering the cost on others who have better insurance and are being unfairly burdened by your plan.
Smashey thanks for the input. Tort reform is not part of this bill. But everyone is saying the bill is too all-encompassing as it is. Simply because there is no TORT reform initiatives in here doesn't mean it doesn't have merit and shouldn't be passed. The Union Cadillac insurance thing, well I dunno about that really. Maybe they did adjust the assessment level for the luxury insurance tax. Who knows they may have been too low on that tax.
I asked my pharmacist how much my 30-day supply of statins cost. She said the tortal cost was $11.20 - imagine that! My copay is $10 and I pay $100 a week for health insurance. I'm getting ripped off, but believe it or not - that's the most affordable insurance I could get! This country, with nearly 17% of the GPD going into the pockets of doctors, drug and instrument makers, hospitals, nurses, medical suppliers, medical schools and insurance company executives and shareholders, needs to get the whole shebang under control. I think this bill will be quite effective in slowing down health care costs and getting involved enough to ensure our citizens are nort getting ripped off blind for no good reason.
The only way to stop paying $100 for bandaids is to stop paying $100 for bandaids. The insurance companies don't seem to be able to stop spending $100 on bandaids so maybe it's time the government, with the best interests of the nation abnd it's citizens and good intent other than profits, take some control.
Maditude, "..before wqe spend another dine on health care..."???? Hol;y shit we are spending 1/6th of the GDP on health care. We gotta CUT down what we spend on health care in this country and that measn driving down costs, considerably and that is one aim of this bill.
Why not just make all of the health insurance companies illegal, so that people won't have money confiscated from them so that they can actually afford to go to the hospital?
Yep bad schools? More money, some department in the government not working right or not gettting the results u like? More money, that is all government does these days is take more more more. Enough is enough.
Very true Maditude. The governments response to everything in the last 15 years has been to throw money at an issue instead of fixing the issue at it's root.
Before we spend another dime on health care, we should take a close look at why it's so expensive. Throwing money at it will not lower costs and will be a larger tax burden to taxpayers in the long run.
erock, my hometown has a huge hospital district. Most of the accounting depts. have stated that almost all of those that make payment arrangements for their emergency room visits end up defaulting on them, either by filing bankruptcy or simply letting it go to collections. The hospital has sued some of these people, but it does nothing. They did not have money before, they aren't going to magically have money when they have a judgment against them.....So, what happens? Either the hospitals end up eating the costs, or those that do pay their bills make up for those who don't with the outrageous costs......FNG is right! A better way would be to just insure everybody and cut out all the meddling bullshit insurance companies completely. As the Progressive Republicans of the early 20th Century did, I support universal health insurance for all Americans!
Buying policies across state lines is good. Allowing pre-existing conditions is good. Unions exemptions from the Cadillac rule is bad. No tort reform is bad. There, some things I like and some I don't. ;)
wrong musicman, you should try talking to an attorney, as long as you work a payment schedule out they will accet what you can pay. that is why you can not claim bancruptcy to dispell a medical debt.
What the hell? Back room deals! That's alot of rhetoric. This bill was deliberated far more than any I've ever seen. The fact that they are reconciling by committee for the joint rez doesn't mean shit. That's the way they always do it. It's the House and the Senate trying to work out a compromise between the two houses, nothing more. What about the 10 elements of the bill, that's what I want to discuss. How about #1? #2?, #3?. Is there anything at all about this bill that you guys think is good?
And for the record I agree with erock on this one ...... It is full of backroom deals and hidden agendas but wait Obamas supposed to be the most transparent pres yet!!
Actually BD you are wrong. Hospitals now demand minimum payments based on bill or they turn you in to collections. They stopped doing the 5$ thing years ago.
No its better to have the bill die off. Its a bill full of back room deals and more government.
I don't care. I was advocating passing HR 3200, that's what I'm discussing here. I'd rather have a national health insurance and you'd rather have a pay as you go, but I want to debate yes or no on the "Health Care Bill" as per this blog. I'm saying it will be better to pass it and I want to know what it is about the bill that people don't want. Are there some things in it that would be good for the country and good for reducing health care expenses? I think so and overall I'd vote for it rather than see it die.
What I don't want is your national insuranc plan run by the government.
Erock, great! Let's break up the state-insurance monopolies! Hey wait! That's part of this legislation! Well I'll be dipped in dogshit Erock you actually support some of this legislation! They want to create a free marketplace for health insurance, but they also want to set minimum standards.
hospitals have to accept payment, no matter how small the payment is, such as $5 a week, if you can't afford that then you have bigger issues than healthcare.
No government created this mess which allowed whole sale monopolies on the market place by big insurance companies. We need government to turn their back on the insurnace companies and free up the market place. what we do not need is your blood sucking government plan.
Yes we do. We need the government who has let the insurance industry and the drug industry and the health care industry rape this country in the ass to stand up and get the whole clusterfuck under control. Yopu need to stop advocating for the corrupt and bloodsucking insurance industry and face reality.
No we do not. We need the government who fucked it up in the first place to get out of the way. and we need people like u to stop advocating for the blood sucking government.
Ecock, in spite of what you may drone on and on and on - less government, less government - in fact, yes indeed in order to deal with a corrupt and hyper-expensive and unsustainable health care "systeM' in tis country, we actually do need the government to get it under control. In fact their job is to provide for the general welfare of the nation and a fucked up health care system that bleeds everyone dry and bleeds the country dry, is not in the best interests of the nation.
The first thing we have to decide is whether or not we want all Americans insured. Health care is exceptionally expensive. If you don't want to have all Americans insured, that's OK, but what about the stupid laws that require providers to treat those people anyways regardless of their ability to pay. We will need to get rid of those laws. Then if someone falls and breaks their back, with no means to pay for treatment, we can just say fuck you, you should have bought insurance and leave the guy laying there.
Plus that does not happen in all cases many people do work out payment plans with the hospital and pay back the bill. Your just trying to fear monger so we buy into your ponzi schem.
Stop your crying about the issue because more government and government mandates are not the answer.
That's right Erock, anyone can just say fuck it, I don't want to buy insurance, but then they fall and break their leg and don't have any money and they go to the emergency room and get treated, by law, and then we all have to pay his bill in one way or another, not the least of which would be to pay $100 for a freaking bandaid.
this bill increases healthcare cost. the only reduction would be on those of you who do not have jobs that offer healthcare. you are promoting a ponzi scheme and if it were not for the involvement of the government, you would be locked up for running a confidence game.
they can right now silly FNG. and if we ended the pay roll tax I would use my money to buy basic healthcare. Its that easy.
David, So you don't like the whole forcing people to buy insurance I take it? Do you believe that any American who is sick or injured should be able to see a doctor or be treated regardless of financial condition or whether or not they have insurance?
Well,then,get the fuck OUT of the Republican Party if you`re so miserable.You would fit much more in with the Democrats.Don`t get me wrong,I don`t favor chasing moderates out of the party,I stand more to the center myself on social issues,but I start having a problem when you start kissing the other`s guy ass and start saying you support a health care bill which is a violation of the Constituion.What`s legal about requiring Americans to buy any kind of insurance under the threat of being jailed? It`s a crackdown on the freedom of choice.[And no,I didn`t phrase that wrong,I stated it as exactly as I wanted.] It tells you that doing what you want with your own money is no longer legal.And no,I really don`t think they`d be pissed if this bill died on the Senate floor,if you haven`t noticed,you may well have been too busy at the Church of Obamatards,the Republicans won a pretty crucial victory just a couple weeks ago in Massachusetts,the seat that was once held by the Lion of the Senate.How does that happen if a state that hasn`t elected a Republican Senator in over 40 years and a Republican Presidet in 39 with a liberal Democrat in office,if they`re not pissed at the top guy? How do you explain the downfall of Jon Corzine? The GOP has had a very couple year since Obama took office.
Umm because BD is right.
BD, This bill is designed to reduce health care costs and assure reasonable access to health care and health insurance, and to reduce future deficits that will arise because of problems with medicaid and medicare and you are talking about political upheaval and facist/socialist agendas. Bring your angry mind back to reality and debate the health care bill. I'd like to discuss the different aspects and elements of the bill and you've elected to go tangent on me here. Wazzup wit dat?
i truly enjoy watching two different collectivist argue over what form of collectivism is more important, the facsist or the socialist. you both are destroying the economy and this country with your failed schemes. we have state run and funded healthcare and it is considered the worst option. if you eliminate our defending of other sovereign nations and stop the perpetual war then you can start to consider reducing the debt but only after you revamp social security and eliminate redundant departments within the government. once that happens, then you can start to discuss the healthcare issue. until then you are pissing in the wind.
I wouldn't call this a hasty bill. Sorry. This bill has had more deliberation than anything I've seen in my lifetime. There have been hundreds of amendments, including 90+ REPUBLICAN amendments. The fact is, if you are concerned about the deficit, this is a good bill as it will actually trim the deficit. Other than all the rhetoric boys, which elements of the bill would cause you to vote against it?
it's for the most part with the possible exception of 5 or 6 a one party rule right now and we are on the edge of being "subjects "rather than "citizens"
If they are all for sale whos going to impeach who? its a shell game and that is why I am not happy with either party.
Fuck the senator for sale shit. If they are for sale impeach their ass NOW
We rushed the Patriot Act, we rushed Iraq, we rushed Afghanistan, we rushed the stimulus package, the government is very good at rushing things. And please defeating this bill and not giving back room deals to Unions and Senators is better then letting this bill pass.
Nothing as potentially devastating to the country as this issue should be done in haste. Chrips over 2000 pages of bullshit to hide hidden agenda in? we are facing probable inflation if not hyper inflation 12 trillion dollar debt and mega problems with currency, sovereignty, and a proposed 3.5 trillion dollar YEARLY budget. Regret at your leisure for decades possibly centurys
FNG likes to tax the very middle class he claims to love????
Act in haste, regret at your leisure.
I've finally come to the conclusion that the health care bill should be passed - either version Senate, or House, or Joint rez. We have to have something and this is better than nothing.
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